Re: The Ecumenical Council

[Byzantine_Bithynia]

Origines Artirius

You have put forward some good points, and I think that our church can be strengthened by such a position.

[Cybelos [ERE]]

Patriarch Lysander

I vote in favor as well. The Orthodox Church is the church of the people. Crippled Rome houses the church of the corrupt idol-worshippers, eager to imprison any voice that conflicts with their own, who is to say that they wouldn't do the same to the Jews?

The Cardinals from the Jewish realm hold a disproportionate amount of power in the Latin church already, this agreement would not cause any tension between the two of them, the majority of the Christians living in Judea should be Orthodox anyway.

[House of Judah]

Matthias Ioannidis

"Brother Theodosius, you would think to make Yitzchak bend his knee to Constantinople?  I have my doubts that such a scheme would work.  Let us not forget that a successful Jewish revolt in the Holy Land was among the events that preceded the fall of the original Roman Empire.  That even after being subjugated by mosalmen twice they threw off the bonds of foreign rule and reasserted their independence.  I do not believe that Yitzchak, who let us also remember did not beg the Bishop of Rome for his crown but claimed it and dared the world to deny him, I do not believe such a man would agree to vassalization by a foreign power except at the very end of need, and I assure you we refusing to recognize his right to rule Judea as monarch would not be to him or his subjects the very end of need.

"And, Brother Lysander, if we do comprise a majority of Christians in the Holy Land, it would be just barely so.  Certainly we comprise a majority in northern Judea, Cyprus in particular, but in the southern half of the realm Latins are the majority of  Christians, which is part of why they hold more influence in Judea so far.  The introduction of so many Greeks into the realm as of late with Jewish vassalization of Cyprus could begin to lean things more in our favor.  After all, the Doux of Cyprus is arguably the second most powerful man in Judea now after the King himself."

[Kingdom of Calabria]

Đorđe smiled beneath his beard. "Strength," he thought.

[Cybelos [ERE]]

Patriarch Lysander

"If that is so, Brother Matthias, then perhaps we can get this Doux to support the Church officially? The man has already accepted the Emperor as the ruler of Rome, he would listen to the will of his people, wouldn't he?"

"Would the King, Yitzchak be amenable to having missionaries in his land converting the Catholic population? We've pious men in Africa who could spread the faith, and from the sound of it, a majority in the north. We could both have both groups convene towards the south perhaps. We could open places of learning and assist the communities there in order to improve our position."

"I've another question for you as well. The Nazorean Guard, what is their leaning in all of this? Neutral? Have they been caring for the Greeks equally? Also, what church would the majority of them look to themselves?"

[House of Judah]

Matthias Ioannidis

"The Doux is yet politically untested, but I can broach the subject with him. His own deal with the King may prevent him from to fully backing the Orthodox Catholic Church. And before we get so excited about the idea, I remind you that the Emperor attempted to seize the island he considered his birthright and his recognition of the Emperor was, at best, a political move.

"The king will likely care little enough about the missionaries. He has allowed missionaries into his realm with the only restriction being that they cannot specifically induce a Hebrew to convert, though they can aid him to do so if that is the Hebrew's wish.

"As for the Nazoreans, though the majority are Latin they serve the King of Judeans and not the Bishop of Rome. They are conflicting with other Latins as often as bandits and other threats to Christians of all forms. There are several Latin agitators of particular concern that they seem to clash with daily. Not that I don't have my own zealots to deal with from time to time."

[Varasd]

Theodosius

You misunderstand me, brothers. I do not mean to force the Judean King into submission. I merely say that by the fact that he calls himself a King, by the grace of God, he also accepts that the Emperor is above him.

Same for every other ruler, the King of Varasd too - if he uses the title rex, he knows that by Holy Law, kings are beneath Emperors.

The kings must not be forced to be de facto vassals of the Emperor, but his de jure Lordship should never be loosened or given up.

[Azaq]

Vasilis Michelakis

"Why not force the Hebrew's hand? If he is smart, he will comply. He lacks the power to stand against either the Church or the Empire, and the Latin Church is in no position to come and assist him. If he will not bend the knee, we will either find someone who will or disband his heathen kingdom and split it amongst our righteous brothers.

Perhaps we could even promise that Cypriot a crown to help him pick the right side, he is a politician after all."

[House of Judah]

Matthias Ioannidis

"And the Empire itself will be divided. Regardless of the complications over the matter in Cyprus, I understand there to still be great affection between the King of Cybelos and the King of Judea. If you think to move the Empire against Jerusalem, then it is possible, perhaps even likely, that Athens will turn on Constantinople. And let us also remember that the current Jew-blooded Bishop of Rome is a close friend to King Yitzchak. Basilius may not be a warmonger, but I think he might be moved to defend his friend and homeland. You think the Latin Church would not render assistance? We are excommunicant from Rome. If he decrees it, the whole of the Latin Congregation will descend on us with Roman patents for our crowns. Varasd, Ebsotz, and Calabria are at our very doors. Gepidae, Staedetler and Arcaydea are not so very distant. Heretical though they may be, the Latin Church is not weak and any move which could threaten their power now, especially one that would deny them access to the Holy Land, will be intolerable to them."

[Varasd]

Theodosius

Conflict must be avoided indeed. If we fight with Rome, Judea shall attack our back, and if we fight with Judea, Rome shall attack it.
Solidifying our position is what needs to be done right now, brothers. I suggest that we send missionaries to Azaq, to the remaining paganic hungarians in Varasd, and to every nation in which we have a chance to convert souls!

[Azaq]

Vasilis Michelakis

"Then we must move swiftly, and convert the young heir to Judea while removing his heathen father from the picture. We must remove Yitzchak so he cannot ally with Rome. We must form a barrier against the Roman Church, they can have no allies east of the Carpathians. WE are the Eastern Church, and we must wrestle the East from the control of heathens and heretics, even if it means sinning in the process. We can repent later, God will forgive us for we sin in the name of righteousness. We MUST move to weaken the Latin Church now or they will sow the seeds of our destruction.

As Theodosius said, we should missionaries elsewhere to the world. Azaq, the Hungarians in Varasd, and Egypt are all valid targets. Pagans will be easier to convert to our cause, and so we should target the pagans. Their heathenry is weak, and unorganized. They will see our superior strength, and they will clamor to our ranks. We should send missionaries to all pagans we can find, no matter how far they are. Those Norse barbarians, the vicious, savage Vikings, they would make excellent allies against the Catholic Church for example. If we can convert them, we will have the Latins on their knees.

GOD will see us through, brothers. We cannot fail, for our cause is righteous!"

[House of Judah]

Matthias Ioannidis

"While I can appreciate your... ardor, Brother Vasilis, I fear that you do have a few confusions about the situation. The boy Shmuel in Alexander's court is Yitzchak's youngest son and not the heir apparent to his father's crown. The crown prince, Benyamin, is a grown man, though he is yet unmarried. Perhaps he could be persuaded to take a Greek wife. In between times, I concur with a path forward of missionaries."

[Cybelos [ERE]]

What will the forced conversion of the prince and the displacement of his father see us? His ire?
He would learn quickly of the truth from his countrymen.

We would do well, however to convert the Norsemen. My country already has trade with the people of Juttlande. What could we offer those men to join us? Arms and armor? The priesthood can offer an escape from poverty, but not every man could realistically join the priesthood.

[Kingdom of Calabria]

Đorđe Nenadovič: "Vasilis. Plainly stated, I will support no such measure."

[Cybelos [ERE]]

Brothers, we are not our Kings, we are men of God. Your Kings may not wish to take sides but, you all, by being here, have.
These votes are not made public to your monarchs, remember this. They will hear of the outcome, not the votes and who cast them.

We should all be doing what is best for the people that follow the true Church.
Spreading the truth. Building churches and centers for learning, helping the impoverished, loving our Catholic brothers, not attacking them.

Just as our lord, Jesus Christ would have us do. "Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." he also says
"And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"

We do this, we help the Orthodox people? The rest of the world will see our kindness and wish to hear the message of the church at Constantinople. God is on our side, brothers. The faithful of the true church will be rewarded for their work, and we work for the people, on behalf of God, not mortal Kings.

[Azaq]

Matthias Ioannidis

"While I can appreciate your... ardor, Brother Vasilis, I fear that you do have a few confusions about the situation.  The boy Shmuel in Alexander's court is Yitzchak's youngest son and not the heir apparent to his father's crown.  The crown prince, Benyamin, is a grown man, though he is yet unmarried.  Perhaps he could be persuaded to take a Greek wife.  In between times, I concur with a path forward of missionaries."

Vasilis Michelakis

"Perhaps. Though, should that fail there is always the option of removing Benyamin and anyone else who stands in the way from the picture."

What will the forced conversion of the prince and the displacement of his father see us? His ire?
He would learn quickly of the truth from his countrymen.

We would do well, however to convert the Norsemen. My country already has trade with the people of Juttlande. What could we offer those men to join us? Arms and armor? The priesthood can offer an escape from poverty, but not every man could realistically join the priesthood.

"Your doubt in the church, Lysander, is most troubling. If the Norsemen wants arms and armor, or gold, or whatever they may desire we can feasibly give it to them - and there is nothing in this world that can stop us from doing so - for we are the True Church of our Lord, and his favor will guide us on the righteous path to victory no matter what."

Brothers, we are not our Kings, we are men of God. Your Kings may not wish to take sides but, you all, by being here, have.
These votes are not made public to your monarchs, remember this. They will hear of the outcome, not the votes and who cast them.

We should all be doing what is best for the people that follow the true Church.
Spreading the truth. Building churches and centers for learning, helping the impoverished, loving our Catholic brothers, not attacking them.

Just as our lord, Jesus Christ would have us do. "Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." he also says
"And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"

We do this, we help the Orthodox people? The rest of the world will see our kindness and wish to hear the message of the church at Constantinople. God is on our side, brothers. The faithful of the true church will be rewarded for their work, and we work for the people, on behalf of God, not mortal Kings.

"What is best for the people that follow the true Church is strengthening their position in world, securing their homes from the Roman heretics. You would love heretics, Lysander? The blasphemers who imprisoned you? No, we are not Christ. Christ, as the Son of God, was perfect - but we are not - we cannot hope to be like him, for our sins are too many and by breathing we embrace them. Do not compare us, righteous men, to those savage pagans. I have seen them firsthand, they are barbarians. Let God love the heathens and heretics, it is our place to stay on the righteous path, and the best way to do that is to remove heresy and heathenry where it is found. The mortal kings will bend the knee, or they will perish in the flames of hell with the other sinners and blasphemers."

Vasilis shook his head in disbelief.

"No, no, no. There is only one path we must take - be it in the shadows or in the light - an aggressive one. We must remove the taint of this world, for it is the Lord's will that those who desecrate his green earth be removed, permanently, so that he may judge them in the afterlife."

[Cybelos [ERE]]

It was not myself that made the comparison to pagans, it was your Lord, our God, Jesus Christ. Do not ever speak such blaspheme of him here, Patriarch.

[Byzantine_Bithynia]

I agree with Lysander on this matter. Aggressive action will not do us well in the long run. Perhaps it shall grant us some quick victories, but should we take such a course we will incure the ire of the world. I believe it is very important we work to strengthen our church, and to expand it, but we must do so in a way which will not be detrimental in the long term. We must do what is right, and follow the teachings of our Lord.

You are right, Vasilis, when you say that we are not perfect, but is that reason to abandon doing good? Should we make no effort to better ourselves just because we have began so imperfect? I do not see why we should not do all we can to follow our Lords teachings and do good in his name, so we may be less imperfect - even if it is only a minuscule difference.

[Aegyptus]

Philotheos (of Egypt)

"Brother Vasilis, I agree with the others. Violence and aggressive action is not the way. What would make us different than the savage Vikings you speak of if we did that? As Brother Lysander says, we are not our Kings, but men of God. With all respect, I am against your way of thinking, Vasilis. We must be just, do good, in our Lords name, or else we will all perish with the 'savage pagans' as you call them.

"As to sending missionaries to Egypt, the Orthodox people live in perfect peace and harmony with the followers of the Egyptian Pantheon, and our faith is slowly growing. The pagans of the Land of the Pharaohs are not as aggressive and violent as you claim. I beg of you, Brothers, do not stray from the road of peace. That is all I have to say. May God be with us all."

[Azaq]

It was not myself that made the comparison to pagans, it was your Lord, our God, Jesus Christ. Do not ever speak such blaspheme of him here, Patriarch.

Vasilis Michelakis

"How dare you?"

Vasilis merely sat there, staring at Lysander, losing all respect he once had for the man.

I agree with Lysander on this matter. Aggressive action will not do us well in the long run. Perhaps it shall grant us some quick victories, but should we take such a course we will incure the ire of the world. I believe it is very important we work to strengthen our church, and to expand it, but we must do so in a way which will not be detrimental in the long term. We must do what is right, and follow the teachings of our Lord.

You are right, Vasilis, when you say that we are not perfect, but is that reason to abandon doing good? Should we make no effort to better ourselves just because we have began so imperfect? I do not see why we should not do all we can to follow our Lords teachings and do good in his name, so we may be less imperfect - even if it is only a minuscule difference.

"Then we must stick to the shadows if necessary, where our actions cannot be seen by the world. If we must manipulate events in secret to serve our favor, then so be it. We cannot strengthen our church without weakening the false church or the gatherings of the heathen masses.

We should do good, of course, but only to those who have earned it. Those who convert, members of our flock, those who accept our missionaries. They do indeed deserve our mercy, our compassion, and to them we will extend our friendly hand.

But you would extend this hospitality to those who would not accept it? Those who would violently remove you and your brethren from this Earth? They are simple-minded barbarians who cannot be reasoned with, and they are far too many. They will meet our compassion with violence, and so we should not waste our breath on them.

When we send our missionaries, we will learn who will stand against and who will listen to us. We already know the Latin heretics stand against us, and this new pope will not change that."

Philotheos (of Egypt)

"Brother Vasilis, I agree with the others. Violence and aggressive action is not the way. What would make us different than the savage Vikings you speak of if we did that? As Brother Lysander says, we are not our Kings, but men of God. With all respect, I am against your way of thinking, Vasilis. We must be just, do good, in our Lords name, or else we will all perish with the 'savage pagans' as you call them.

"As to sending missionaries to Egypt, the Orthodox people live in perfect peace and harmony with the followers of the Egyptian Pantheon, and our faith is slowly growing. The pagans of the Land of the Pharaohs are not as aggressive and violent as you claim. I beg of you, Brothers, do not stray from the road of peace. That is all I have to say. May God be with us all."

"The Vikings senselessly slaughter for glory, for their own selfish gains in their pseudo-afterlife. We would do it for God. There is no pain for those who repent, and they will have plenty of time to do that in purgatory, assuming they have not earned a no-stop trip to hell first.

You seem to have a soft spot for heathenry, Brother Philotheos. I will not accuse you of anything yet, but I have doubts on your judgement. You are aware that these pagans in Egypt are the same ones who slaughtered the children of Jewish slaves, who almost slaughtered Moses, and from whom Moses freed the Jews from? God sent his wrath upon them in the form of plagues that devoured Egypt, do not forget this. And just as he punished the pagans of Egypt, he did the same to the sinners of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the pagans of Babylon.

The truth is, brothers, that if we stick to a solely peaceful path, then we will not survive. The world is harsh and cruel, and there is no point in apologizing to a wild bear for merely existing, for it will not care for our words and simply maul us to death. Do not mistake me, we should never give up on peace, but that does not mean we should ignorantly extend our hand to a man who wields a bloody sword, and expect him to shake.

For this, we conceal a dagger in our cloak."

[Aegyptus]

"The Vikings senselessly slaughter for glory, for their own selfish gains in their pseudo-afterlife. We would do it for God. There is no pain for those who repent, and they will have plenty of time to do that in purgatory, assuming they have not earned a no-stop trip to hell first.

You seem to have a soft spot for heathenry, Brother Philotheos. I will not accuse you of anything yet, but I have doubts on your judgement. You are aware that these pagans in Egypt are the same ones who slaughtered the children of Jewish slaves, who almost slaughtered Moses, and from whom Moses freed the Jews from? God sent his wrath upon them in the form of plagues that devoured Egypt, do not forget this. And just as he punished the pagans of Egypt, he did the same to the sinners of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the pagans of Babylon.

The truth is, brothers, that if we stick to a solely peaceful path, then we will not survive. The world is harsh and cruel, and there is no point in apologizing to a wild bear for merely existing, for it will not care for our words and simply maul us to death. Do not mistake me, we should never give up on peace, but that does not mean we should ignorantly extend our hand to a man who wields a bloody sword, and expect him to shake.

For this, we conceal a dagger in our cloak."

Philotheos


"The Aegyptus of today is different. It has changed, it has become more accepting. I assure you, there is no need to slaughter and kill like barbarians unless we are directly threatened." Philotheos was unsure of Vasilis' purity.

"It isn't our job to lead armies or destroy pagan countries, nor is it our job to manipulate Kings into doing so."

[Kingdom of Calabria]

Đorđe Nenadovič: "Brother Lysander is correct. We are not Kings. We choose to do what it Right by God. It is my belief Vasilis would deny this and instead would do that which would net him personal gain. His views are a detriment to the Council, to Orthodoxy, to Constantinople, to Rome, to his home country of Azaq, and to the world at large. Vasilis treads on the ground paved by the Heretical Bogomils.

"I put forth the motion to hereby banish Vasilis from the Council. His words are poison."

[Varasd]

Theodosius

Brothers! Though I am against the violent expansion for now, do remember Matthew 27:25: "Let his blood be on us and our children!" The jews are slayers, executioners, if not, murderers of our Lord. They have betrayed him when the Apostles least expected them. We must be cautious with them, even if their realm is strong now.

[Azaq]

"The Vikings senselessly slaughter for glory, for their own selfish gains in their pseudo-afterlife. We would do it for God. There is no pain for those who repent, and they will have plenty of time to do that in purgatory, assuming they have not earned a no-stop trip to hell first.

You seem to have a soft spot for heathenry, Brother Philotheos. I will not accuse you of anything yet, but I have doubts on your judgement. You are aware that these pagans in Egypt are the same ones who slaughtered the children of Jewish slaves, who almost slaughtered Moses, and from whom Moses freed the Jews from? God sent his wrath upon them in the form of plagues that devoured Egypt, do not forget this. And just as he punished the pagans of Egypt, he did the same to the sinners of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the pagans of Babylon.

The truth is, brothers, that if we stick to a solely peaceful path, then we will not survive. The world is harsh and cruel, and there is no point in apologizing to a wild bear for merely existing, for it will not care for our words and simply maul us to death. Do not mistake me, we should never give up on peace, but that does not mean we should ignorantly extend our hand to a man who wields a bloody sword, and expect him to shake.

For this, we conceal a dagger in our cloak."

Philotheos


"The Aegyptus of today is different. It has changed, it has become more accepting. I assure you, there is no need to slaughter and kill like barbarians unless we are directly threatened." Philotheos was unsure of Vasilis'  purity.

"It isn't our job to lead armies or destroy pagan countries, nor is it our job to manipulate Kings into doing so."

"Different? They still follow the same heathen ways, yet you claim they are 'different'? The Khan of Azaq is 'accepting', but that doesn't make him any less of a heathen. Do you know that the Zoroastrians practice incest? And that they leave their bodies out in the sun to stink and rot in full view of the world, and much more.

Tell me, Philotheos, do the Egyptian pagans still believe their pharaoh is a god? Do they still believe in witchcraft? Do they still gut their dead and place their organs in jars? Do they still trust the word of so-called 'oracles'? Do they, like the Zoroastrians, also still practice incest?

Their heathen ways are an affront to God, yet you cherish them like they are your fellow brethren of the cross. They are heathens, Patriarch Philotheos, and they should be treated as such. Ours is the one, true God. There is no room on God's Earth for these false gods and their false ways.

They will be converted, and if they refuse, then they shall be sent to God for punishment."

Đorđe Nenadovič: "Brother Lysander is correct.  We are not Kings.  We choose to do what it Right by God.  It is my belief Vasilis would deny this and instead would do that which would net him personal gain.  His views are a detriment to the Council, to Orthodoxy, to Constantinople, to Rome, to his home country of Azaq, and to the world at large.  Vasilis treads on the ground paved by the Heretical Bogomils.  

"I put forth the motion to hereby banish Vasilis from the Council.  His words are poison."

"Has Satan tainted your wine? I do not seek these worthless, mortal, material objects or gains. I serve GOD, and I do only that which would please him. You seem to forget, brothers, that Christ himself said he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. His own words. It is clear what this means, that we must hunt down the heathens and heretics who would not convert to the true ways and send them to God to be judged for their crimes.

You call my words poison? I only preach what is the truth, and the truth is that God is the judge of all men, and we are the guards who put them on trial. The only heresy here is from this coddling of those who sin against the church.

The righteous church moved against the Bogomils, yet it digs it's heels into the sand when there are more infidels and blasphemers to address?"

Theodosius

Brothers! Though I am against the violent expansion for now, do remember Matthew 27:25: "Let his blood be on us and our children!" The jews are slayers, executioners, if not, murderers of our Lord. They have betrayed him when the Apostles least expected them. We must be cautious with them, even if their realm is strong now.

"It is not only the Jews, it is all heathens and heretics. They cannot be trusted. If we let them live in peace with us, they will stab us in the back. They have done so before, and they will do so again.

[Aegyptus]

Đorđe Nenadovič: "Brother Lysander is correct.  We are not Kings.  We choose to do what it Right by God.  It is my belief Vasilis would deny this and instead would do that which would net him personal gain.  His views are a detriment to the Council, to Orthodoxy, to Constantinople, to Rome, to his home country of Azaq, and to the world at large.  Vasilis treads on the ground paved by the Heretical Bogomils.  

"I put forth the motion to hereby banish Vasilis from the Council.  His words are poison."

Philotheos

"I am against this. Though Brother Vasilis has been acting in a way unfit of a brother of the cross, we will give him another chance. After all, did the Lord not give us another chance? Did Noah not escape death with the pagans and sinners? Did he not forgive us more when he sacrificed his Son, our Saviour, Jesus Christ?

"As to your claims that I cherish the pagans, Vasilis: just because I am against utter genocide does not mean I am with them. Though we tolerate each other, I am afraid peace will always evade us."

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