Re: The Ecumenical Council

[Kingdom of Calabria]

Đorđe Nenadovič: "Friend, if your nation's plan is to once again sack Rome unprovoked then your people ate not Orthodox, they are mere barbarians and deserve a seat nowhere."

[Baxelthueda]

Đorđe Nenadovič: "Friend, if your nation's plan is to once again sack Rome unprovoked then your people ate not Orthodox, they are mere barbarians and deserve a seat nowhere."

"Of course not brother, we have no plans, I merely wish to state that should Rome bring war to our lands it will be no easy endeavour."

[Kingdom of Calabria]

Đorđe Nenadovič: "Good. Then my vote stands as is."

[Azaq]

Vasilis Michelakis

---

"We should never turn away a fellow Orthodox nation or community willing to stand against heathens and heretics alike. I approve of allowing the Goth into the council."

[Cybelos [ERE]]

I am also in favor of giving the faithful of Bæxelþúëda a voice.

The vote stands at:
Yes:
Vasilis of Azaq
Theodosius of Varasd
Khristos Primo of Scilenia
Origines Artirius of Bithynia
Đorđe Nenadovič of Calabria
Lysander of Cybelos
No:
Undecided: Matthias Ionnidis

What say you, Matthias?

[House of Judah]

Matthias Ionnidis

"I say I am a bit surprised that we even needed to have the discussion. Yea if it is needed."

[Cybelos [ERE]]

Of course, we are all wiser for hearing from every member of our council.

Onto the next motion that Patriarch Ionnidis had brought up previously.

Bishop Matthias Ioannidis

"I am supportive of the matter that I have apparently missed the conversation of, but I do have a different matter to discuss with the other members of this council.  I am sure we all remember that several years ago King Yitzchak formed an agreement with Pope Leo.  As of yet, his status as a Hebrew has allowed His Majesty remain above and separate from our current conflict with Rome, and holds that his agreement with Rome still shelters Christians of the Original Church.  Undoubtadly, he will come under pressure from the West to align himself more with Rome than Constantinople.  I believe we can preempt such a move by forming an agreement with His Majesty now.  His guarantee of continued protection for Christians of the True Church and the allowance for us to construct our own monasteries and churches within the Holy land for the protection of his crown and Jews within the lands of those who hold to the Original Church."

Shall such an agreement be written? If so, what shall it contain? Let us discuss.

[Byzantine_Bithynia]

Origines Artirius

I would support such an agreement, I think it could be very beneficial to us.

[Scilenia]

Khristos Primo

"I agree with my fellow Patriarch. This will benefit both sides. However, I don't particularly agree with protecting Jews."

[Cybelos [ERE]]

"I do not believe that the proposal is calling for the Orthodox Church to protect the Jews of the holy land, merely those who live within our own Kingdom's borders. The Orthodox Christians should be, in turn, granted the same rights as the Latins in Judea. Am I correct, Patriarch Matthias?"

[House of Judah]

Matthias Ioannidis

"Essentially. Within the realms of Orthodox kings, the Jews would not be killed, taxed or deprived of property on account of their faith, nor could they be denied their faith."

[Scilenia]

Khristos Primo

"Personally, I would never support this. However, as a representative of my nation, I must set aside my opinions in order to make the decisions that will beneficially help my nation. I Approve of creating said agreement.

[Cybelos [ERE]]

Patriarch Ionnidis, what did you mean when you had said "for the protection of his crown..." in your proposal? Are the Orthodox nations meant to come to the Jewish King's aid in times of troubles? This is something I, as a Patriarch could not sign off on without advisement from my countrymen.

Bishop Matthias Ioannidis
His guarantee of continued protection for Christians of the True Church and the allowance for us to construct our own monasteries and churches within the Holy land for the protection of his crown and Jews within the lands of those who hold to the Original Church."

[Varasd]

Theodosius:

Brothers, I am afraid I CAN not guarantee that such a proposal or agreement can be enacted in the Kingdom of Varasd. My King, even though has chosen to remain neutral, is catholic.

On the other hand as I've mentioned before, the son of the Judean King is in Cybelos. The agreement with the Bishop of Rome and the King was made before the Shism, and the catholic vhurch could ask to move the child elsewhere. How are we to prevent this?

[Azaq]

Vasilis Michelakis

"I have not a care in the world for the heathen Jews, who betrayed our Lord and refuse to accept him as the messiah they waited for, however any agreement that could strengthen the church is one I will fully support, regardless of my views.

As for this Jewish Prince in Cybelos, I am not familiar with this arrangement. If one could explain the situation, I am sure I can come up with a solution for it, assuming one exists.

Also, I was instructed by the Khan of Azaq to inform the council that, while he does not rescind his distaste of the Christian faithful, he claims to have... 'sympathy'... for the Orthodox Church, and has thus permitted missionaries from our church to enter his lands if we will it, so long as they do not attempt to convert the Khan or his family. I do not trust him, for he is a heathen, and I believe he has some ulterior motive of some sort, yet at the same time I think he is also genuine about his sympathy and permittance of proselytizing within the Khanate. I would advise, that if we do indeed go through with sending missionaries to Azaq, we would best stay away from those who follow Zoroaster. Although the Khan said that only he and has family was off limits, I suspect trying to convert from the majority faith may be difficult and instigate tensions we would do well to avoid, and perhaps earn his admiration, to which having the Khan as an ally would do well for the church. I suggest targeting the Tengri and Perun worshipers, and the Nestorius heretics, if we are to go through with this."

[House of Judah]

Patriarch Ionnidis, what did you mean when you had said "for the protection of his crown..." in your proposal? Are the Orthodox nations meant to come to the Jewish King's aid in times of troubles? This is something I, as a Patriarch could not sign off on without advisement from my countrymen.

Matthias Ioannidis

"I would think you would be more familiar with the matter than I, having been a Cardinal of the Latin Church when the agreement I model my proposal upon was enacted. According to my understanding of the agreement between Rome and Jerusalem, the Bishop of Rome has made it an excommunicable heresy for a Christian to attempt to wrest his crown from himself or his heirs. I simply suggest that we likewise make clear that no true Christian will attempt to do what the Pope has forbidden to the Latin Christians."

[Cybelos [ERE]]

Patriarch Lysander

I believe we could arrange that if we could write that the Jewish King does not interfere with any Orthodox nation in the same manner.

But, what I am asking is, do you propose that the Orthodox nations come to the aid of Judea if the crown was attemptedly usurped by a Orthodox Christian not affiliated with our respective monarchs?
I could not approve that particularly without advisement.

Patriarch Vasilis, the arrangement is that King Yitzchak would be granted a crown if he fulfilled the requirement of having his young son attend a foreign, Christian court until he reached adulthood.

[Cybelos [ERE]]

Theodosius:

Brothers, I am afraid I CAN not guarantee that such a proposal or agreement can be enacted in the Kingdom of Varasd. My King, even though has chosen to remain neutral, is catholic.

If your King answers to Rome then your King would have already agreed to protect the Jews of his domain.
I believe by approving all you would be doing is ensuring the protection of your fellow Orthodox brothers and sisters in the holy land.

[House of Judah]

Patriarch Lysander

I believe we could arrange that if we could write that the Jewish King does not interfere with any Orthodox nation in the same manner.

But, what I am asking is, do you propose that the Orthodox nations come to the aid of Judea if the crown was attemptedly usurped by a Orthodox Christian not affiliated with our respective monarchs?
I could not approve that particularly without advisement.

Matthias Ioannidis

"I do not believe we need go that far, though there are a great many questions yet concerning the authority of our council among those loyal to the Original Church. Latins fear the threat of excommunication, for the horrors it legitimizes to be visited upon them are insurmountable. The theft or revocation of their own lands, enslavement of their line, and the firm declaration that they will gain no support from the rest of Western Christendom. I am unsure of our ability to offer a similar threat, but if we can it could certainly help convince King Yitzchak that we are serious about an agreement with Jerusalem."

[Cybelos [ERE]]

Should excommunication be used as a form of punishment? Should it not be used to discipline the penitent, to show them how they have fallen to sin, to assist them in reconciling with the original church? In extreme cases to make a point we could issue an anathema against them, such as what was done in the matter of the schism. I believe that would cover the horrors of which you speak.

I would like to hear more from our brothers on the council, any opinions on Patriarch Matthias Ionnidis' point on our authority?

[Azaq]

Patriarch Lysander

I believe we could arrange that if we could write that the Jewish King does not interfere with any Orthodox nation in the same manner.

But, what I am asking is, do you propose that the Orthodox nations come to the aid of Judea if the crown was attemptedly usurped by a Orthodox Christian not affiliated with our respective monarchs?
I could not approve that particularly without advisement.

Patriarch Vasilis, the arrangement is that King Yitzchak would be granted a crown if he fulfilled the requirement of having his young son attend a foreign, Christian court until he reached adulthood.

Vasilis Michelakis

"Then let his deal transfer to the righteous church. We shall grant the Jew his crown, and he would be foolish to reject our proposal considering his proximity to the Empire, not to mention that we now have his son and heir within our realm. We can force his hand, and there will be nothing the False Church in Rome can do nothing to stop us, and neither may the Hebrew Lord of Jerusalem."

Should excommunication be used as a form of punishment? Should it not be used to discipline the penitent, to show them how they have fallen to sin, to assist them in reconciling with the original church? In extreme cases to make a point we could issue an anathema against them, such as what was done in the matter of the schism. I believe that would cover the horrors of which you speak.

I would like to hear more from our brothers on the council, any opinions on Patriarch Matthias Ionnidis' point on our authority?

"The False Church has no power in our realms, and no authority either. They have overstepped their bounds and excommunicated all of us already, and yet here we stand - defiant and free - proving the Pope has no power in the Orthodox realms. The people must learn this, and realize the shortcomings of the Papal Cult.

Excommunication should be used for heretics and sinners, and those that follow the Cult of the Pope are heretics. They should all be excommunicated. As well as all those that serve the Papacy, who have stained the Church of Peter with their sins."

[Kingdom of Calabria]

Đorđe Nenadovič: "Friends. There is little I can say on Matters of State, given the current climate. My vote must be to abstain on all things except those in regard to Ecumenical Matters. My allegience is split between the I hail from and the Rite I bear witness to.

"However, let me add to the discussion of the legitimacy of Crowns granted by a pope. I ask this: are a father's debts eliminated upon his passing, or do they transfer to his next of kin? In that, I mean, as this Council is borne of those spurned by the Catholic Church, is it right for us to refuse all that has been done by the Papacy? Or should be bear some of the burden granted to us by those who have come before?

"I, for one, would tend towards the understanding that "a crown is a crown" whether granted by Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or the Paganism of yore. It is not for us to decide. It is for those to whom it is granted to decide to act the part.

"As far as excommunication is concerned: it should be reserved for those horrible souls who are unrepentant of their mortal sins."

[Byzantine_Bithynia]

Origines Artirius

As I have said, I would be in support of the agreement, and I must stress that I believe it would be for the best. All that said, I only support this for the benefits it gives to the church, I honestly have little concern about someones crown being recognized or any such matter. I do not think we should care by whom the crown is granted, and should acknowledge it regardless. As Nenadovič said, 'a crown is a crown'.

I believe we must work towards what is best for the Orthodox church and the Orthodox faith, so I vote in favor of the agreement.

[Azaq]

Vasilis Michelakis

"A crown is bestowed by God upon those worthy of receiving it, and in this case that means righteous followers and loyal allies of the church. 'A crown is a crown', what nonsense. God decides who is deserving of a crown, and as the False Church hands out it's False Crowns made of rubbish, we must be the ones to pass out our Righteous Crowns in response to combat this falseness."

[Varasd]

Theodosius

"Brothers! Remember the course of the past; we can learn from it much. In the days of the Roman Empire, the Emperor granted a crown for a rex, and the rex became his vassal.
Everyone who knows about politics know this, not only scholars. Monarchs who accept the title rex know about this too! For years, there was no Emperor of Rome, so the kings were the vassals of no-one. But there is an Emperor of Rome now! Monarchs who name themselves rex, know what their titles mean!

Their right to rule comes from God, and that means that they must accept that the Protector of the Original Church of Christ, is above them.

I believe we can all agree on this, brothers."

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